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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

tl;dr: Wayland is not "the future", it is merely an incompatible alternative to the established standard with a different set of priorities and goals.

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
RAM usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, theoretically better (debatable, comment) multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev) - but applications can be blurry
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev), 2 Years Later Wayland Is Still Debating A Basic Feature
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Feb 6, 2026

No. It's made for clients connecting to a mainframe, not PC

Again, no. Completely wrong. A server-client setup doesn't necessarily mean the server of a service has to be a physical mainframe providing networked resources. A server can just be a piece of software in an operating environment that allows the client in the user space, in many cases, local, with resources at its disposal.
PulseAudio and Pipewire are servers also with clients. They too can be ran from a mainframe, but can also be ran from a desktop system equally, the same as X11.
When you have services/daemons in a system, these set up resources to be available to either the localhost client or networked clients.
Actually learn how servers (especially software services/daemons) work before you make erroneous statements like you have.
Servers can be daemonized like sshd, dhcpcd, or even cupsd, and servers can also be instanced like pulseaudio and xserver. Even services like baloo are instanced services.
The point is, even if X11 on the whole was made to be a server, it's nothing more than a service providing a resource to the localhost machine for the client software side, X itself, to use with what software calls for it's usage, whether it be xfce, windowmaker, twm, cinnamon, etc.

Not directly, but it's UNIX-like because it uses GNU as it's main OS component, a FOSS alternative to UNIX.

But not Unix. It's not derived from original Unix, not Unix-certified and not fully POSIX-compliant

UNIX-like is still using the same underlying principles. UNIX is more than just UNIXware or SVR4 based systems or software. UNIX is a principle and design more than it is software. This is why BSD is often still called Berkeley Systems Distribution UNIX. It is not UNIXware or SVR4 or anything based on AT&T code, but it is a UNIX-like system that operates under the same design and principles as UNIXware. Look at OpenIndiana. It's a UNIX system based on SVR4 in FOSS. It is not UNIX, but it is still a UNIX. Linux is a kernel, but coupled with GNU, and you have GNU/Linux, a UNIX-like system. Just because it's UNIX like doesn't mean it's UNIX itself, but it means it's a type of UNIX. This is where UNIX becomes a principle rather than a product. UNIX principles mean that you can have a common userland, available to many designs, like GNU for example, but then you have a kernel that can be anything. Illumos is paired with GNU to make Illumos-gate. FreeBSD's kernelwas paired with GNU to make kFreeBSD by Debian. GNU is paired with Linux the kernel to make GNU/Linux. But GNU can also be paired with HURD to make GNU/HURD. A flexible design able to serve many kernels for many purposes. GNU is not UNIX, but GNU is UNIX-like. Why, it follows the same principle.

You nver heard of a .exe package and redistributable libraries?

How do they relate to the freedom to run software without installation that Windows has and that Microslop never tried to impinge on?

Because .exe files basically do what flatpaks, snaps, and appimages do, they provide a precompiled binary, and all necessary, at build time libraries in a directory tree structure, unless the binary was built with static libs, which nowadays isn't popular because of problem with static libraries at times having vulnerabilities. While on Windows, most libraries are built statically into the binary itself, you can opt for dynamic libraries to be used. It's not uncommon to find some Windows software with a /bin, /lib, and more microtree directory structure containing libraries like libpng.dll, libz.dll, libjpeg8.dll, etc. from the source as part of the package. GIMP does this. OBS does this. Libreoffice does this. I've seen various emulators over the years do this. In fact, there are even games that do this. Open a directory in C:\Program Files and see for yourself sometime. Especially the forementioned.

That's an irrelevant answer

No, it's an answer you refuse to accept because you don't want to admit to it, admit you might be wrong, and admit your preconceived notions are built on erroneous data.

Dude. Its a Network Graphics Protocol.
All the blocking internAtom Calls for Window Management Extensions, GetProperty calls and property change reqeust which an X11 Application makes to the Xserver over houndreds of times on startup to the XServer and back is horribly designed and doesnt make sense at all on a local System. You dont put an Filesystem Server and Client on the same machine, you defeat the whole porpuse of what it is suppose to do.

Networked Graphics Protocol... You do realize localhost is part of a network, the loopback, even if you are the only members of said network... Right? And a filesystem server protocol has to exist for all servers because they all have to read the local filesystem for resource availability.

CUPS is a networked printing protocol. You have to have a localhost to access port 631 to configure CUPS, which means you have to have a loopback in the network at least.

You guys keep throwing mud at a teflon wall here trying to make something stick because you are trying to make a narrative but neither of you even know how the server-client model works at the fundamental level.

All software in a UNIX environment all have a lrimary filesystem server access model in file:///, which is how all UNIX based and derrived operating systems start their own read access of a local filesystem. That means all browsers and file system managers have a filesystem server-client model too.

If you knew anything about UNIX based systems, this is elementary school level knowledge of UNIX and UNIX-like systems. Everything is a file, services are either daemonized or instanced, the system is the localhost of the loopback in the network, and the localhost is a server and client equally.

You guys act like you're newbies to UNIX yet claim to have years of experience.

Yeah thats the fucking problem. Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible. Everything is a File is pure bs and doesnt make sense, setuid is a absolute shitshow, etc. The point is to reject such stupid Legacy ideas and use them only when it makes sense. And for drawing graphics having an application go with the same information back and forth instead of something like an compositor handeling it just introduces unnecessary latency.

@silverhadch
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OpenIndiana is based on Illumos-gate. A free open source UNIX operating system based on OpenSolaris based on UNIX specification SVR4, and is a registered UNIX.

GNU is a free open source UNIX-like operating environment. GNU uses either HURD or Linux as it's kernel.

BSD is a free open source UNIX-like operating system.

DarwinOS/MacOSX is a hybird proprietary + open source operating system based on FreeBSD with a custom kernel and userland. It is also a registered UNIX.

UNIX is still alive. In principle and software alike, UNIX is still alive, and the UNIX trademark is still owned by Novell.

The UNIX Operating System died decades ago. The trademark holds zero meaning or value in real life scenarios. Google could go and get Android licensed as UNIX and it would mean nothing. There is no UNIX anymore, the most used form of "UNIX" is GNU/Linux and MacOS and which both are only inspired by it. MacOS doesnt contain a single bit of UNIX Code no matter its BSD Origin. The Unix name is completely meaningless and used for classifiying difffrent OSes that are radicaly diffrent from UNIX and the rest.
Its design principles are also dying off. Linux killed UNIX. And thankfully also moving away from its out dated design.

@aki-k
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aki-k commented Feb 6, 2026

The UNIX Operating System died decades ago.

That's easy to debunk:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_AIX

Latest release 7.3 TL4 (7.3.4)[2] / December 2025; 2 months ago

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 6, 2026

Yeah thats the fucking problem. Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible. Everything is a File is pure bs and doesnt make sense, setuid is a absolute shitshow, etc. The point is to reject such stupid Legacy ideas and use them only when it makes sense. And for drawing graphics having an application go with the same information back and forth instead of something like an compositor handeling it just introduces unnecessary latency.

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.

The UNIX design is based on the KISS principle.

What you want is what Windows is. Windows has things not as files, aka The Registry. Why does GNU/Linux need to be another Windows OS filled with inadministerable systems, bloatware to no end, and corporate garbage? Do you even realize that everything being done to GNU/Linux is being done to recreate the same OS design model people flee from, rail over, and raise pitchforks and torches against?

And the display server nonsense you keep droning on about is just rhat, nonsense. You have ZERO idea how this entire kernelspace and userland work and interwork between each other. You proved this already!

You're another wannabe faddist trying turn an administrator involved operating system and environment into nothing but a toy system to play with like a spoiled child because you hate Windows, but still simp after it like a horny teenager after an e-girl showing cleavage in a skimpy outfit. What people like you don't understand is nobody asked you to come to GNU/Linux or any UNIX or UNIX-like system for that matter. You chose to come here, didn't like what you found, when plenty of others were fine with what was here, and think as the lowest common denominator that your opinion matters.

UNIX and UNIX-like systems are not your play toys. Stop trying to make them be as such. You will not get your Windows. You will get a mess that everyone will be spending years cleaning up because you came in with a hyper case of little-bigman syndrome did your damage and then walked out. Lennart Poettering already did this. He came in, stirred the pot, created a service manager nobody asked for, got it implemented, and then walked off the GNU/Linux landscape to take a job at Microsoft working on Windows 11. Yes, your idol, made a mess and now people are left to clean it up. He did the same thing with PulseAudio and other projects. And guess what? The rest of us UNIX and UNIX-like system developers, admins, and users are sick and tired of this. We do NOT want a toy operating system. We are using GNU/Linux to do work and keep the world afloat while you play games and watch brain rot.

You are not us. Go back to Windows and stay there!

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Feb 6, 2026

Yeah thats the fucking problem. Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible. Everything is a File is pure bs and doesnt make sense, setuid is a absolute shitshow, etc. The point is to reject such stupid Legacy ideas and use them only when it makes sense. And for drawing graphics having an application go with the same information back and forth instead of something like an compositor handeling it just introduces unnecessary latency.

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.

The UNIX design is based on the KISS principle.

What you want is what Windows is. Windows has things not as files, aka The Registry. Why does GNU/Linux need to be another Windows OS filled with inadministerable systems, bloatware to no end, and corporate garbage? Do you even realize that everything being done to GNU/Linux is being done to recreate the same OS design model people flee from, rail over, and raise pitchforks and torches against?

And the display server nonsense you keep droning on about is just rhat, nonsense. You have ZERO idea how this entire kernelspace and userland work and interwork between each other. You proved this already!

You're another wannabe faddist trying turn an administrator involved operating system and environment into nothing but a toy system to play with like a spoiled child because you hate Windows, but still simp after it like a horny teenager after an e-girl showing cleavage in a skimpy outfit. What people like you don't understand is nobody asked you to come to GNU/Linux or any UNIX or UNIX-like system for that matter. You chose to come here, didn't like what you found, when plenty of others were fine with what was here, and think as the lowest common denominator that your opinion matters.

UNIX and UNIX-like systems are not your play toys. Stop trying to make them be as such. You will not get your Windows. You will get a mess that everyone will be spending years cleaning up because you came in with a hyper case of little-bigman syndrome did your damage and then walked out. Lennart Poettering already did this. He came in, stirred the pot, created a service manager nobody asked for, got it implemented, and then walked off the GNU/Linux landscape to take a job at Microsoft working on Windows 11. Yes, your idol, made a mess and now people are left to clean it up. He did the same thing with PulseAudio and other projects. And guess what? The rest of us UNIX and UNIX-like system developers, admins, and users are sick and tired of this. We do NOT want a toy operating system. We are using GNU/Linux to do work and keep the world afloat while you play games and watch brain rot.

You are not us. Go back to Windows and stay there!

I dont want to be one of you. I develop low level components in the Linux Space, have a job administering Linux Servers, develop Software for the KDE Community and help out other Distros. I give my free time to the community and unlike you arent a net negative sitting in some gist talking big. I dont care what you think. You have zero power over me or infact anything. I am happy the way I am and with the things I am doing and are proud of them. I am part of an healthy community like KDE, Fedora, AerynOS etc. and not some guy obssesed in a cultish way with Software who cant deal with his insecurities and feelings of being powerless. Dont flatter yourself that I want to be part of your toxic "community", you did nothing, you can do nothing. Neither will I lose sleep about this. If you cant tell I am here to entertain myself by seeing people like you think they have an impact on the Linux Space by just throwing around words. You have zero effect on me. I feel nothing talking to you other then cringe and pity. Get that in your head. Your words are empty and devoid of any meaning to me or anyone else.

@alerikaisattera
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Again, no. Completely wrong. A server-client setup doesn't necessarily mean the server of a service has to be a physical mainframe providing networked resources. A server can just be a piece of software in an operating environment that allows the client in the user space, in many cases, local, with resources at its disposal.

Again, yes. X11 protocal is designed for clients connecting to a mainframe and is ill-suited for PC use

Because .exe files basically do what flatpaks, snaps, and appimages do

What are you smoking? AppImages and container cancers don't even do the same thing and are polar opposites, the former having mandatory installation and latter having full freedom to run without installation, and in fact lacking any installation capability altogether. And .exe files are very similar to AppImages in this regard: it is possible to run them just by clicking them

No, it's an answer you refuse to accept because you don't want to admit to it, admit you might be wrong, and admit your preconceived notions are built on erroneous data.

What are you smoking?

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.

Redox's everything is a URL is better

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 6, 2026

Yeah thats the fucking problem. Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible. Everything is a File is pure bs and doesnt make sense, setuid is a absolute shitshow, etc. The point is to reject such stupid Legacy ideas and use them only when it makes sense. And for drawing graphics having an application go with the same information back and forth instead of something like an compositor handeling it just introduces unnecessary latency.

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.
The UNIX design is based on the KISS principle.
What you want is what Windows is. Windows has things not as files, aka The Registry. Why does GNU/Linux need to be another Windows OS filled with inadministerable systems, bloatware to no end, and corporate garbage? Do you even realize that everything being done to GNU/Linux is being done to recreate the same OS design model people flee from, rail over, and raise pitchforks and torches against?
And the display server nonsense you keep droning on about is just rhat, nonsense. You have ZERO idea how this entire kernelspace and userland work and interwork between each other. You proved this already!
You're another wannabe faddist trying turn an administrator involved operating system and environment into nothing but a toy system to play with like a spoiled child because you hate Windows, but still simp after it like a horny teenager after an e-girl showing cleavage in a skimpy outfit. What people like you don't understand is nobody asked you to come to GNU/Linux or any UNIX or UNIX-like system for that matter. You chose to come here, didn't like what you found, when plenty of others were fine with what was here, and think as the lowest common denominator that your opinion matters.
UNIX and UNIX-like systems are not your play toys. Stop trying to make them be as such. You will not get your Windows. You will get a mess that everyone will be spending years cleaning up because you came in with a hyper case of little-bigman syndrome did your damage and then walked out. Lennart Poettering already did this. He came in, stirred the pot, created a service manager nobody asked for, got it implemented, and then walked off the GNU/Linux landscape to take a job at Microsoft working on Windows 11. Yes, your idol, made a mess and now people are left to clean it up. He did the same thing with PulseAudio and other projects. And guess what? The rest of us UNIX and UNIX-like system developers, admins, and users are sick and tired of this. We do NOT want a toy operating system. We are using GNU/Linux to do work and keep the world afloat while you play games and watch brain rot.
You are not us. Go back to Windows and stay there!

I dont want to be one of you. I develop low level components in the Linux Space, have a job administering Linux Servers, develop Software for the KDE Community and help out other Distros. I give my free time to the community and unlike you arent a net negative sitting in some gist talking big. I dont care what you think. You have zero power over me or infact anything. I am happy the way I am and with the things I am doing and are proud of them. I am part of an healthy community like KDE, Fedora, AerynOS etc. and not some guy obssesed in a cultish way with Software who cant deal with his insecurities and feelings of being powerless. Dont flatter yourself that I want to be part of your toxic "community", you did nothing, you can do nothing. Neither will I lose sleep about this. If you cant tell I am here to entertain myself by seeing people like you think they have an impact on the Linux Space by just throwing around words. You have zero effect on me. I feel nothing talking to you other then cringe and pity. Get that in your head. Your words are empty and devoid of any meaning to me or anyone else.

Don't flatter yourself over your ego. You develop software, big deal, so have I. Do I care of my work has stagnated over 10+ years? No I don't. I wrote what I wrote that was needed and relevant for it's time. You have no effect on me either. I have nothing, but contempt for people like you who get bored and incite change for the sake of the alleviation of boredom, and feel tried and true methodology that has kept a system of design and practice working for over 50+ years is irrelevant. When I wrote my software, I wrote it in accordance to UNIX compliance and UNIX structuring.

If I didn't have zero effect on you, then why are you in this gist stirring up trouble and mocking efforts, constantly belittling efforts by other developers?

@italian-brainrot
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Wayland is not an operating system. GNU is an operating system.

same difference

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 6, 2026

Again, no. Completely wrong. A server-client setup doesn't necessarily mean the server of a service has to be a physical mainframe providing networked resources. A server can just be a piece of software in an operating environment that allows the client in the user space, in many cases, local, with resources at its disposal.

Again, yes. X11 protocal is designed for clients connecting to a mainframe and is ill-suited for PC use

Because .exe files basically do what flatpaks, snaps, and appimages do

What are you smoking? AppImages and container cancers don't even do the same thing and are polar opposites, the former having mandatory installation and latter having full freedom to run without installation, and in fact lacking any installation capability altogether. And .exe files are very similar to AppImages in this regard: it is possible to run them just by clicking them

No, it's an answer you refuse to accept because you don't want to admit to it, admit you might be wrong, and admit your preconceived notions are built on erroneous data.

What are you smoking?

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.

Redox's everything is a URL is better

OMG I had to laugh at this. Everything is a URL is for distributed servers, not local PC systems. It requires a mainframe.🤣

Oh wait, you and the other guy said it was bad design for X, but for a whole system it would work.🤣

Do either of you know exactly what you're talking about because this is just sad. I've had a better conversation with an AI LLM that actually was referencing source material.😂 At least the AI made a logical statement and knew what it was talking about. 😂

@pete
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pete commented Feb 6, 2026

X11 protocal[sic] is designed for clients connecting to a mainframe and is ill-suited for PC use

You could avoid saying things that are contradicted by the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article.

You may be thinking of /dev/tty, but the "mainframe" was dead by the 90s. (People that are eager to throw out X11 "because old" almost invariably make extremely heavy use of the terminal emulator; the [T]ele[TY]pe ASR-33 is from 1963.) We're all here using HTTP, RFC1945 was 1996. NTP was 1990, a year before Project Athena shipped. "A Standard for the Transmission of IP Datagrams over Experimental Ethernet Networks" is RFC 894/895 and that's 1984 but nobody seems eager to get rid of Ethernet. "Mainframes".

Network-transparent display is still convenient.

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Feb 6, 2026

Yeah thats the fucking problem. Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible. Everything is a File is pure bs and doesnt make sense, setuid is a absolute shitshow, etc. The point is to reject such stupid Legacy ideas and use them only when it makes sense. And for drawing graphics having an application go with the same information back and forth instead of something like an compositor handeling it just introduces unnecessary latency.

How is the UNIX design flawed? Everything is a file is how you keep it stupidly simple, make it easy to administer, and even simpler to deploy.
The UNIX design is based on the KISS principle.
What you want is what Windows is. Windows has things not as files, aka The Registry. Why does GNU/Linux need to be another Windows OS filled with inadministerable systems, bloatware to no end, and corporate garbage? Do you even realize that everything being done to GNU/Linux is being done to recreate the same OS design model people flee from, rail over, and raise pitchforks and torches against?
And the display server nonsense you keep droning on about is just rhat, nonsense. You have ZERO idea how this entire kernelspace and userland work and interwork between each other. You proved this already!
You're another wannabe faddist trying turn an administrator involved operating system and environment into nothing but a toy system to play with like a spoiled child because you hate Windows, but still simp after it like a horny teenager after an e-girl showing cleavage in a skimpy outfit. What people like you don't understand is nobody asked you to come to GNU/Linux or any UNIX or UNIX-like system for that matter. You chose to come here, didn't like what you found, when plenty of others were fine with what was here, and think as the lowest common denominator that your opinion matters.
UNIX and UNIX-like systems are not your play toys. Stop trying to make them be as such. You will not get your Windows. You will get a mess that everyone will be spending years cleaning up because you came in with a hyper case of little-bigman syndrome did your damage and then walked out. Lennart Poettering already did this. He came in, stirred the pot, created a service manager nobody asked for, got it implemented, and then walked off the GNU/Linux landscape to take a job at Microsoft working on Windows 11. Yes, your idol, made a mess and now people are left to clean it up. He did the same thing with PulseAudio and other projects. And guess what? The rest of us UNIX and UNIX-like system developers, admins, and users are sick and tired of this. We do NOT want a toy operating system. We are using GNU/Linux to do work and keep the world afloat while you play games and watch brain rot.
You are not us. Go back to Windows and stay there!

I dont want to be one of you. I develop low level components in the Linux Space, have a job administering Linux Servers, develop Software for the KDE Community and help out other Distros. I give my free time to the community and unlike you arent a net negative sitting in some gist talking big. I dont care what you think. You have zero power over me or infact anything. I am happy the way I am and with the things I am doing and are proud of them. I am part of an healthy community like KDE, Fedora, AerynOS etc. and not some guy obssesed in a cultish way with Software who cant deal with his insecurities and feelings of being powerless. Dont flatter yourself that I want to be part of your toxic "community", you did nothing, you can do nothing. Neither will I lose sleep about this. If you cant tell I am here to entertain myself by seeing people like you think they have an impact on the Linux Space by just throwing around words. You have zero effect on me. I feel nothing talking to you other then cringe and pity. Get that in your head. Your words are empty and devoid of any meaning to me or anyone else.

Don't flatter yourself over your ego. You develop software, big deal, so have I. Do I care of my work has stagnated over 10+ years? No I don't. I wrote what I wrote that was needed and relevant for it's time. You have no effect on me either. I have nothing, but contempt for people like you who get bored and incite change for the sake of the alleviation of boredom, and feel tried and true methodology that has kept a system of design and practice working for over 50+ years is irrelevant. When I wrote my software, I wrote it in accordance to UNIX compliance and UNIX structuring.

If I didn't have zero effect on you, then why are you in this gist stirring up trouble and mocking efforts, constantly belittling efforts by other developers?

why are you in this gist stirring up trouble and mocking efforts, constantly belittling efforts by other developers?

Yes, that’s exactly the point. This echo chamber is incredibly entertaining. Nearly all of the arguments here boil down to: “I don’t want to use Portals or PipeWire, and I refuse to engage with Wayland’s issues, because I’m clinging to conspiracies and blaming Wayland for problems that also exist in X11—like the lack of a built-in permission system—while refusing to do the same configuration work I’d have to do on Xorg anyway.”

It’s especially amusing to watch a vocal minority act as though they’re entitled to dictate how everyone else should develop software. This whole thread is pure drama. I don’t belittle developers who are actually building things; my issue is with people here who mostly complain without contributing meaningfully. I only check this gist every few months, unless something major happens.

The only serious, non-DOA effort to keep X11 alive that I’m aware of is Phoenix, and that’s largely because it’s essentially a Wayland compositor that implements X11 APIs while stripping out X11’s legacy baggage and poor design choices. Notably, its developer isn’t in here complaining. I’m here to watch the show.

You come across as just another person romanticizing unnecessary manual configuration as some elitist badge of honor—the equivalent of “I use Arch, btw.” Yes, editing config files for things like gssproxy to handle Kerberos tickets makes sense on a headless server, which is what the vast majority of Linux systems actually are. Desktop Linux users are a minority. But on a desktop, especially a gaming rig, I shouldn’t have to administer low-level details just to get basic functionality. Relying on self-written drivers instead of the kernel’s DRM APIs is not good design in 2026.

You’ll likely twist my words and claim I want to “Windows-ify” Linux. That’s not it. I enjoy configuring my system—I run NixOS on my workstation and laptop. But a default desktop experience shouldn’t require deep configuration just to function. Xorg itself has moved away from the days when you had to manually set every PS/2 mouse parameter via xconfig and symlinks just to get your cursor moving. The main issue with X11 isn’t just the protocol—it’s the outdated and messy implementation. Power users should still be able to tweak, but it shouldn’t be a requirement for basic use.

I’m against gatekeeping in both directions: configuring shouldn’t be impossible or overly difficult, and not configuring shouldn’t be impossible or overly difficult. Gatekeeping helps no one. Needing to handhold a display server isn’t a virtue—it’s an admission that Xorg isn’t meant for the average user.

I’m pragmatic. If Phoenix takes off and proves better than current Wayland implementations, I’ll switch. I want something that works well and isn’t a security mess. Right now, my choice is between “tolerable Wayland” and “the absolute mess of Xorg.” I hope a better solution emerges—whether it’s Phoenix, Arcan, or something entirely new. But I’m never going back to Xorg as it exists today.

And honestly, this whole obsession with the UNIX philosophy drives me up the wall. People talk about it like it was handed down on stone tablets—when it was literally just engineers trying not to melt a PDP-11. Everything had to be simple because the machine had like 4KB of memory. You didn’t have 100,000 processes, you had maybe 16. Their text editor was so unusable they had to split it into pieces and invent grep just so the OS wouldn’t choke reading a file.

Don’t get me wrong, some of the ideas are solid. “Everything is a file” works for a lot of things. But try stretching it to every I/O device or security model and you’re in for a world of pain. And setuid? Oh yeah, letting a random process become root from userland in memory-unsafe C—brilliant design, what could possibly go wrong.

The UNIX philosophy isn’t a religion. It was a hack for 1970s hardware. Use it where it makes sense, but clinging to it like dogma in 2026 is how you end up with brittle, insecure, user-hostile garbage. Engineers back then weren’t prophets—they were just trying to keep the computer from catching fire. Maybe we should do the same.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 6, 2026

Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible

You are kidding, aren't you? Most of us are using Linux because we want a Unix-like system.

Some people just don't get the timelessness and beauty of things like "everything is a file". Which is fine, but please don't water down the Unix-like experience for the rest of us. (To this day I don't know the cryptic commands to search logs with systemd whereas a simple grep -r will do everywhere else..)

@NexusSfan
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To this day I don't know the cryptic commands to search logs with systemd whereas a simple grep -r will do everywhere else

BTW it's journalctl -u [something] ex. journalctl -u apache2.service

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Feb 6, 2026

Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible

You are kidding, aren't you? Most of us are using Linux because we want a Unix-like system.

Some people just don't get the timelessness and beauty of things like "everything is a file". Which is fine, but please don't water down the Unix-like experience for the rest of us. (To this day I don't know the cryptic commands to search logs with systemd whereas a simple grep -r will do everywhere else..)

Again not what I said. Let me ask you this is it more secure to ask PID 1 for a privileged child process or to have an binary able to just become root from a user controlled enviroment? The second and incredibly insecure and bad way is the Unix way. Just because its Unix doesnt make it good. You have to take the good parts and leave out the bad, just being dogmatic about Unix Design wont bring you far if you dont understand what its suppose to achieve. Doing things the Unix way is not always the best way. systemd has become the defacto standard for init systems on Linux and doesnt care about Unix Design Philosophy because the Unix Design Philosophy would only hold it back. The old Unix Script based init systems were horrible but allowed Unixisms like greping easily through logs but brought significant drawbacks with it being too simple. Nobody is trying to get rid of the shell or most stuff being file based but they need to be used in the right places. If you really want full blown UNIX go get yourself an IBM Aix Machine. Linux is Unix inspired meaning it doesnt have to 100% follow every design decision. Including the bad ones like setuid for example.

@silverhadch
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Old UNIX Design Ideas are horrible

You are kidding, aren't you? Most of us are using Linux because we want a Unix-like system.

Some people just don't get the timelessness and beauty of things like "everything is a file". Which is fine, but please don't water down the Unix-like experience for the rest of us. (To this day I don't know the cryptic commands to search logs with systemd whereas a simple grep -r will do everywhere else..)

Also you can make the logs plain text but there is way more to that.
https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/SystemdJournalAndPlaintextLogs

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 6, 2026

Also you can make the logs plain text

Do you happen to know the exact setting for that? This would actually be really helpful.

Setting Storage=persistent in /etc/systemd/journald.conf probably won't be sufficient to make the usual logs appear in /var/log as they have for decades?

@silverhadch
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Also you can make the logs plain text

Do you happen to know the exact setting for that? This would actually be really helpful.

Setting Storage=persistent in /etc/systemd/journald.conf probably won't be sufficient to make the usual logs appear in /var/log as they have for decades?

They will be stored there as binary if you also want them as old plain text, you install a syslog deamon like rsyslog. As far as I know all systemd logs then will be stored there as plain text like in the 80s. You lose out on a lot of features systemd provides to help you debug but can grep them instead if you feel like it. I dont know why somebody would rather do these things manualy and lose indexing, metadata etc. but its your system so do as you please.

@silverhadch
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Also you can make the logs plain text

Do you happen to know the exact setting for that? This would actually be really helpful.

Setting Storage=persistent in /etc/systemd/journald.conf probably won't be sufficient to make the usual logs appear in /var/log as they have for decades?

Basically you can have the best of both worlds. Tell systemd to throw its binary logs into /var/log and forward to a syslog deamon that also throws plain text version into /var/log. So when you cd into /var/log you you use journalctl or cat to read the two types of logs.

@silverhadch
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Also you can make the logs plain text

Do you happen to know the exact setting for that? This would actually be really helpful.

Setting Storage=persistent in /etc/systemd/journald.conf probably won't be sufficient to make the usual logs appear in /var/log as they have for decades?

Also journalctl has a grep flag so you can also use that. There are many ways to deal with logs in systemd.

@Consolatis
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You are kidding, aren't you? Most of us are using Linux because we want a Unix-like system.

That is a pretty bold statement. I would rather claim that most people (as in the actual people using the Linux kernel in some form, that also includes things like android, gamers and random IOT devices) don't have a clue what UNIX is. And neither should they need to know.

Some people just don't get the timelessness and beauty of things like "everything is a file".

Can we please stop using this framing? Its simply not true. Many things in the linux ecosystem is a "file descriptor" but once you actually start to interact with the kernel (rather than using random library wrappers), that file handle stops being a "file". Its just an "object" which you call ioctl() on, with arguments which are very specific to what that object actually is. Some of those objects do additionally support standard interface like read() and mmap() and can be poll()ed but others do not.

Other things are not files at all or when was the last time your ifconfig or ip route just mounted a remote gateway into a /net directory? There are systems out there which do that but there is also a reason things like Plan 9 are extremely niche.

@NexusSfan
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but once you actually start to interact with the kernel (rather than using random library wrappers), that file handle stops being a "file". Its just an "object" which you call ioctl() on, with arguments which are very specific to what that object actually is. Some of those objects do additionally support standard interface like read() and mmap() and can be poll()ed but others do not.

Which sucks. Everything should be a file. Even NT does this better, with their registry, every config is a file.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 8, 2026

If this is what you want of Linux, then why even have Linux?

Why not just use ReactOS? It's actually got a registry. Uses FOSS. Why not just forego Linux and just use ReactOS? Honestly, changing Linux just to turn it into a wannabe Windows when you have a FOSS Windows-esque OS available... Why bother with Linux?

@NexusSfan
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Why not just use ReactOS? It's actually got a registry. Uses FOSS. Why not just forego Linux[sic] and just use ReactOS? Honestly, changing Linux[sic] just to turn it into a wannabe Windows when you have a FOSS Windows-esque OS available... Why bother with Linux[sic]?

I prefer HURD.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 8, 2026

I prefer FreeBSD at this point. 😒

@NexusSfan
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BSD is monolithic, so it's obsolete.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Feb 8, 2026

BSD is monolithic, so it's obsolete.

Your link was about Linux being obsolete, not FreeBSD, but I get the idea that monolithic kernels are eventually toast and their future is limited.

Windows has a hybrid kernel to their own luck but even then, it's not perfect.

As much as I wish to see HURD succeed as a kernel, it has to get some parity with FreeBSD at minimum in driver and feature support.

Vendors also need to then write drivers to be able to plug into HURD being a microkernel.

@probonopd
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probonopd commented Feb 8, 2026

I dont know why somebody would rather do these things manualy and lose indexing, metadata etc. but its your system so do as you please.

The systemd stuff... well, to give you an idea:

  • No one has asked for the change of something that has worked for decades
  • No one knows the cryptic commands needed, everyone knows grep -r something /var/log
  • The binary stuff violates Unix philosophy
  • It violates POLA, the Principle of Least Astonishment
  • It changes how our systems work in ways we don't like
  • It makes stuff more complicated
  • It makes stuff not work like it works everywhere else
  • Red Hat has had its fingers in it, so no wonder it makes stuff more convoluted and complicated

@silverhadch
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If this is what you want of Linux, then why even have Linux?

Why not just use ReactOS? It's actually got a registry. Uses FOSS. Why not just forego Linux and just use ReactOS? Honestly, changing Linux just to turn it into a wannabe Windows when you have a FOSS Windows-esque OS available... Why bother with Linux?

Again why do you care? What benefits do you get from gatekeeping Linux other then worse support?

@silverhadch
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I dont know why somebody would rather do these things manualy and lose indexing, metadata etc. but its your system so do as you please.

The systemd stuff... well, to give you an idea:

  • No one has asked for the change of something that has worked for decades
  • No one knows the cryptic commands needed, everyone knows grep -r something /var/log
  • The binary stuff violates Unix philosophy
  • It violates POLA, the Principle of Least Astonishment
  • It changes how our systems work in ways we don't like
  • It makes stuff more complicated
  • It makes stuff not work like it works everywhere else
  • Red Hat has had its fingers in it, so no wonder it makes stuff more convoluted and complicated

Yeah, the random sleep calls and messy bash scripting were obviously so much better than proper dependency ordering.

The Unix philosophy was engineering for the constraints of the time. They didn’t want the PDP-11 to catch fire. On a busy Monday back then maybe 12 processes were running. Open htop right now and count how many are running on your system. Computing changed massively since the early Unix era. Systems are way more powerful and way more complex.

The original Unix text editor could barely edit files because anything more advanced would have pushed the system too far. Simplicity sounds amazing on paper, but in reality making tools too simple can massively hurt usability and reliability.

And the “binary logs violate Unix philosophy” argument is kind of weak. Journald’s binary format is optional. systemd can forward everything to a traditional syslog daemon if that’s what you want. You’re not locked into anything.

Yes, systemd makes things more complex. But it also made things more usable. You don’t have to rawdog sleep calls and while loops just to hope a dependency is up before your service starts.

You might prefer the “simpler” approach — though it’s really only simple on paper — but most of the Linux ecosystem adopted systemd because the old way didn’t scale well anymore.

Saying it “doesn’t work like everywhere else” also isn’t really accurate. macOS, Windows, and a bunch of other systems have centralized service management too. macOS is even certified Unix, and launchd heavily influenced systemd. If we want to be pedantic, you could argue systemd-style init is closer to what modern Unix systems actually look like.

And about Red Hat having its fingers in it — that’s overstated. systemd has many contributors. A significant portion of the Linux kernel is written by Red Hat employees too. That doesn’t automatically make it bad. You can criticize Red Hat’s business decisions, sure. But a company contributing to Linux doesn’t mean they’re trying to sabotage it. They rely on it for huge parts of their business and harming it would be economic suicide.

@probonopd
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But a company contributing to Linux doesn’t mean they’re trying to sabotage it.

No. But there is no denying that Red Hat as a company has interest only in Linux, not in other POSIX systems like the BSDs. Which might give them an incentive to focus in their contributions exclusively on Linux, to the disadvantage of other POSIX systems. Not saying that it is what it is happening, but there would be the incentive.

Also, there is no denying that Red Hat as a company makes money on support. Which might give them an incentive to increase overall system complexity and change with their contributions, rather than focusing on simplicity and minimizing change and surprises. Not saying that it is what it is happening, but again, there would be the incentive.

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